TWC won't provide CableCards for Series 3 TiVos!?!?

[TheDecn]

Just saw this story on Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/26/time-warner-wont-provide-cablecards-for-series-3-tivos/

which links back to this post at consumerfury.com:

http://www.consumerfury.com/twcraleigh072506.aspx

Seems that at least one TWC region will be refusing to provide CableCards for Series 3 TiVo owners. Please...someone from our local TWC...respond and say it isn't so for us Columbus customers. I've been eagerly waiting for a Series 3 for months, and I don't think I'm alone on this forum. If this is indeed true, I will immediately cancel my TWC subscription on principle alone and make the switch to WOW.

edit: found some more info and there are several threads on the tivocommunity forum, including this quote:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4227652#post4227652

There is no point to buying a TIVO series 3 if you are a TWC customer. TWC is going to broadcast every channel using switched digital vide (SDV) bandwidth very soon and the in that scenario there will be nothing on a TWC system which the cablecard in the TIVO S3 will be able to record. So, unfortunately if you're in TWC territory, the TIVO S3 box is not an option for you.

[HDTV News Poster]

Time Warner won't provide CableCARDs for Series 3 TiVos? (http://hdtv.engadget.com/2006/07/26/time-warner-wont-provide-cablecards-for-series-3-tivos/)

Remember how TiVo recently sent that letter (http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/19/tivo-tells-fcc-cable-operators-to-expect-series-3-boxes-soon/) to the FCC and cable operators telling them to be prepared for the Series 3 (http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-announces-series-3-hd-tivo-due-this-year/) rollout, partly because of reports that some providers were refusing to hook up beta testers with the necessary CableCARDS (http://www.engadget.com/search/?q=cablecard)? Well now it looks like the company's concerns may be completely legitimate, as a complaint on the website ConsumerFury contends that Time Warner Cable's Raleigh division responded to a recent customer inquiry on the matter by stating that "Time Warner Cable of Raleigh does not provide support for or allow TiVo devices on our cable network...CableCARDS will only be installed on cable-ready, CableCARD-slot-available television sets." Pretty harsh, especially considering the fact that Time Warner's policy may not even be legal: federal regulations concerning CableCARDS seem to indicate that providers must support them for any unidirectional TV, set-top-box, or recording device connected to a digital cable system. We certainly understand that cable companies see TiVo as a direct competitor to their own DVR offerings, but we're not sure that alienating customers with such a hard-line stance is the best move; after all, isn't a customer who brings his/her own DVR to the table better than no customer at all?

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/07/tivohdfront.jpg (http://www.consumerfury.com/twcraleigh072506.aspx)

[Scott]

Merged with the article posted by HNP. I'm going to contact TWC about this today and hopefully find some sort of an answer.

[DublinDoodah]

Pretty harsh, especially considering the fact that Time Warner's policy may not even be legal: federal regulations concerning CableCARDS seem to indicate that providers must support them for any unidirectional TV, set-top-box, or recording device connected to a digital cable system.I wonder if the FCC will step up and enforce their own regulation. If not, it looks like TIVO has grounds for a law suit.

[zelig2]

A long drawn out law suit taking over 2 years so as not to actually get the cable cards into the series3 units before the company files for bankruptcy...

[kevinbuckeye]

Can someone explain the appeal of the TIVO 3? If the cheapest TIVO plan is 16.95 per month with a three year committment plus you'll need two cablecards at $1.75 with TW for a total of $20.45. I think the SA8300HD is $13.95 a month with no committment and you can usually negotiate it lower.
Do people feel that the TIVO will be so much better that it is worth $500 (?) to purchase and an extra $6.50 a month especially since cablecards don't seem that reliable anyway? I personally love my 8300HD and have no complaints that would make it worth shelling out that much money. I usually would rather own a device than rent, but with the speed these things are improved doesn't it make more since to rent and then replace for free once a better model comes out?

[Scott]

Do people feel that the TIVO will be so much better that it is worth $500 (?)

Yes. TiVo can not be compared to any DVR currently on the market. $500 is cheap. I threw $999 at my HR10 a couple of years ago and was never tempted to jump on any of the cable DVRs simply due the lack of TiVo's software.

Once you've used it, it's very difficult to go back. I most likely will be leaving D* when they force me to upgrade to their DVR--and this will be the STB I'll be buying.

[zelig2]

One bonus of the series3 box is that with TWC you could finally get and record ABC/FOX since it has an OTA jack. That really tempted me to wait for the box and stick with TWC but in the end it just wasn't enough for me.

[kevinbuckeye]

Yes. TiVo can not be compared to any DVR currently on the market. $500 is cheap. I threw $999 at my HR10 a couple of years ago and was never tempted to jump on any of the cable DVRs simply due the lack of TiVo's software.

What about the software makes the TIVO so much better than the scientific atlanta?

[Scott]

What about the software makes the TIVO so much better than the scientific atlanta?
A few facts about the SA8300HD that you would never consider cons unless you've spent a good deal of time with a TiVo (taken from various posts around tivocommunity.com (http://tivocommunity.com/)):
No tick marks to advance through a show quickly
Doesn't remember where you left off in more than one show
Can't watch two live things at once by pausing one and switching over, it will reset the other show's buffer (no direct control of each tuner)
Biggest problem with the DVR. This DVR is NOT designed to timeshift. When a program is currently being recorded and you go the the playlist to play it from the beginning (timeshift), it doesn't let you play from the beginning. You have to start playing from the current (live) location and rewind! (with no tickmarks :P )
As if that wasn't bad enough, when the DVR is finished recording the show you get TELEPORTED to the current time!
Searching for a program requires you to either find it in the guide manually or search using the first letter of the program only.
The cursor doesn't scroll through the menus, instead, the menus scroll through a stationary cursor centered in the middle of the screen. This means there is no "top" or "bottom" of a menu or "now-playing list" and you can just scroll indefinitely. I realize some people may like this style of menu, but I find it very annoying.
You can't hit the "play" button on a title in the "DVR" list, but instead have to hit SELECT to list the options for the title, and then hit SELECT again while hovering over the "Play" option in the men.
The "Guide" and "DVR" menus are designed for 4:3 display only, so on a 16:9 display, you end up with gutters on-screen whenever the guide or DVR list is shown. This gutter space would be better used to expand the content of the DVR and guide screens, which is woefully devoid of useful info.
You can only get to the Guide indirectly: Go to main menu and then hit SELECT on the Guide option.
No 30-second skip function during playback.
There's a rudimentary equivalent of the Season Pass manager, but you can't set priorities. Upcoming titles to be recorded are listed under "Scheduled Recordings", but until this most recent updated you couldn't see titles with no upcoming recordings. (Now, they are listed with a "past" date. A little confusing, but better than not having this.)
Like TiVo, you can tell the 8300 to keep a show for 7 or 14 days. However, unlike TiVo, the 8300 immediately deletes the show on the 7th or 14th day, regardless of how much space you have left. (TiVo will keep the show beyond the "keep until" date until it needs that space.)
No OTA tuner (let alone two).

I'm in no way saying that the 8300 is bad; but, the TiVo has been around a long time and has had that time to fix some of the goofy bugs which DVRs are just now scratching the surface of.

[Scott]

Oh, and no word back from TWC.

[Timcredible]

I wonder if the FCC will step up and enforce their own regulation.

ha ha ha. the fcc does nothing unless there's money in it for them. they have a rule that says a company can't own more than 1 station per market, but sinclair has 2 here. i've contacted them over the years, and about 5 years ago they would respond to my inquiries, the last couple of times i never heard a thing - they're worthless, unless you have an indecency complaint, then they'll levy a fine (where does the fine money go anyway?)

[kevinbuckeye]

Most of those things in the list are wrong about the 8300.

No tick marks to advance through a show quickly There are tick marks at every 15 minutes that you can go to.
Doesn't remember where you left off in more than one show
Can't watch two live things at once by pausing one and switching over, it will reset the other show's buffer (no direct control of each tuner) You can pause a show, switch to other tuner and then switch back to where you paused.
Biggest problem with the DVR. This DVR is NOT designed to timeshift. When a program is currently being recorded and you go the the playlist to play it from the beginning (timeshift), it doesn't let you play from the beginning. You have to start playing from the current (live) location and rewind! (with no tickmarks :P ) This is false. You can play from the beginning in the list.
As if that wasn't bad enough, when the DVR is finished recording the show you get TELEPORTED to the current time!
Searching for a program requires you to either find it in the guide manually or search using the first letter of the program only.
The cursor doesn't scroll through the menus, instead, the menus scroll through a stationary cursor centered in the middle of the screen. This means there is no "top" or "bottom" of a menu or "now-playing list" and you can just scroll indefinitely. I realize some people may like this style of menu, but I find it very annoying. There is a top and bottom of the list.
You can't hit the "play" button on a title in the "DVR" list, but instead have to hit SELECT to list the options for the title, and then hit SELECT again while hovering over the "Play" option in the men. If you hit play from the menu it will play the program. I just tried it.
The "Guide" and "DVR" menus are designed for 4:3 display only, so on a 16:9 display, you end up with gutters on-screen whenever the guide or DVR list is shown. This gutter space would be better used to expand the content of the DVR and guide screens, which is woefully devoid of useful info.
You can only get to the Guide indirectly: Go to main menu and then hit SELECT on the Guide option. This is not true.
No 30-second skip function during playback.
There's a rudimentary equivalent of the Season Pass manager, but you can't set priorities. Upcoming titles to be recorded are listed under "Scheduled Recordings", but until this most recent updated you couldn't see titles with no upcoming recordings. (Now, they are listed with a "past" date. A little confusing, but better than not having this.)
Like TiVo, you can tell the 8300 to keep a show for 7 or 14 days. However, unlike TiVo, the 8300 immediately deletes the show on the 7th or 14th day, regardless of how much space you have left. (TiVo will keep the show beyond the "keep until" date until it needs that space.) It keeps programs longer than that. I just checked that I have programs from June 19th. I don't think they delete until space runs out.
No OTA tuner (let alone two).

[tenja]

Any DVR other than Tivo sucks. There is no comparison.

I swear, if this is true for TWC columbus, I will immediately cancel my service and never have cable again. I think they will think twice about their crappy ways if they lose a lot of subscribers that provide $1200 per year..........

[Scott]

Most of those things in the list are wrong about the 8300.
Again, I will reiterate that I do not think the 8300 or any other DVRs are bad products. As is the case with most things in life, a certain amount of subjectivity is involved with every personal opinion. My personal opinion is that TiVo currently has the best DVR on the market based soley on me having used both TiVo and various other DVRs--of which I've found the DVRs to be "clunky" at best. Will DVRs get better? I certainly hope so--and I won't be afraid to give one a go if/when this occurs.

[TheDecn]

What about the software makes the TIVO so much better than the scientific atlanta?

A *few* of the many things my TiVo does that my 8300HD doesn't:

- Stream mp3s and photos from my basement PC
- Allow me to copy shows I've recorded from my TiVo to my PC, then transfer those shows easily to my iPod or my PSP
- Stream internet radio from Live360, access my Yahoo! photo album, and get traffic updates, and buy movie tickets (more of a novelty, but cool nonetheless)
- I can set up a "wishlist" season pass, which basically means I can select things like my favorite director, actor, genere, etc. and the TiVo will automatically record shows that match my search criteria
- When I set up a season pass for a show that plays many times throughout the week (like Myth Busters for example), the TiVo won't re-record a show that it has already recorded in the past 30 days. The 8300HD will record *every* show, quickly filling it with mulitple identical episodes
- The TiVo guide provides tons of information about episodes, including original air date and more metadata than you'd ever want to know
- The TiVo guide extends 14+ days into the future, while my 8300HD guide usually only holds 3 or 4 days and a max of 6 days if I skip forward and wait for "loading data"
- My TiVo will download video podcasts like Rocketboom for crying out loud!

Man...I could go on and on but my Powerbook battery has only 5min left. Trust me...spend some time with a TiVo and you'll never go back.

[HDTV News Poster]

Time Warner does / doesn't support CableCARD TiVos (http://hdtv.engadget.com/2006/07/28/time-warner-does-doesnt-support-cablecard-tivos/)

Since we ran that last post about Time Warner Cable (disclaimer: TWC is owned by Time Warner, our parent company's parent company's parent company) giving peeps hell (http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/26/time-warner-wont-provide-cablecards-for-series-3-tivos/) about running their TiVo Series 3 (http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/05/tivo-announces-series-3-hd-tivo-due-this-year/) boxes with operator-issued CableCARD (http://www.engadget.com/search/?q=cablecard)s, we've seen the cable company subjected to inscrutably painful amounts of ire the likes of which TWC isn't even accustomed to hearing from the Engadget Podcast (http://podcasts.engadget.com/). But now things are just getting confusing and muddled. All of a sudden TiVo Community user BillyT2002 got a call back from a Time Warner direct manager who laid the FUD to rest by letting him know that the TiVo S3 will definitely work perfectly and be supported by and on TWC's network with TWC's CableCARDs, and that the CSRs who made the previous statements to the contrary were completely misinformed. Ok, sweet. Except for the fact that mere minutes before we were sent this tip, a gent by the name of Phil forwarded us an email from TWC in LA / San Fernando Valley that stated the following: "We do offer Cable Card [sic] technology, however, we will not install Cable Cards onto equipment aside from the television itself. We will not support any 3rd party equipment devices such as Tivo." (We've published it in full after the break.) Oook. So what's it going to be, guys? We've got some freaking gear to buy already -- it is 2006, after all. And people wonder why CableCARD hasn't taken off, and why there's little or no consumer confidence in its adoption.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/07/tivo_s3_sm.jpg (http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/26/time-warner-wont-provide-cablecards-for-series-3-tivos/)

[zelig2]

That statement makes sense. The previous comments that they would not rent out the cablecards to people without CC-ready TVs was the one to be concerned with. I wouldn't expect TWC to support any third party hardware. The key word is support. They may lease you a cablecard but they won't help you troubleshoot/install it into your TiVo.

[foolintherain]

I have a TW cablecard in my Samsung plasma downstairs and it works great. Everyone that I talk to at TW says bad things about CableCard though. They say "it sucks" etc. I think they don't like it because they can't charge you as much to rent it. Same with the Tivo3 deal. You can rent the cable cards but they don't get as much money as if you were renting a DVR box monthly. As for Tivo 3 it sounds great but I don't like the rumoured price. I was thinking of using it as an OTA receiver and DVR in my projector room. Do you absolutely have to signup for their service to use it at all or is that just for advanced features? I don't use a phoneline, so i don't really want to get one just for Tivo ya know? Also, the next-gen CableCard is 2-way...so you can use it for payperview, etc. Pretty cool in my book. I hope it makes it because I love not having a box on my living room plasma.

[zelig2]

So lets see... the box costs $800, $2 / month for each CableCard (v1), TiVo services is up to $20 a month... Sounds like an expensive proposition to have one of these. If I was still on TW I would think about getting one if they didn't charge a monthly fee.

[festivus]

Dish's 622 HD DVR has a lot of the same issues. In some ways, I'm finding it worse than the TWC 8300. Remember that with the 622, it's a dual tuner being used by 2 (or more)TV's. When you're recording something, either TV1 or TV2 must watch that show. I'm getting around this by having a second dual tuner receiver with one tuner wired to the rf input on my large HDTV. When I record, I use the HDTV's TV1 tuner. If I want to watch something different I switch to the other receiver.

It's not a huge pain to do this, but the second receiver is not HD. And try to explain this process to others in the household.

And guess what the wife noticed about the 622? No clock display on the front.

Sure, it's better in some ways than the 8300, but very very similar.

Also with Dish, I'm finding that I'm missing some channels. ONN (HS football stuff), and I believe Sports Time Ohio and Fox Sports Net for all of you baseball fans, although I haven't really searched the last 2.

[zelig2]

There are definately some tweeks I would like to have on the 622 box. Mainly I really want two tuners for OTA. I've got people over at my house next weekend and I'm pretty sure they're gonna wanna watch the OSU-Texas game and I would like to record the women's final at the US Open. I also wish when you press record after watching a show for an hour that it would record everything that's in the live tv buffer. I miss that.

[ja5477]

sportstime ohio and fox sports net are both on dish.

[festivus]

Yes, I now see STO and FSN on Dish. Thanks.

Re the 622, I noticed that you can record an OTA show and watch a satellite show using TV1 while TV2 can continue to do it's own thing.

I didn't know that the manual record wouldn't record the buffer data. That stinks. And this thing got CNET's top score? There must not be many HD DVR's out there.

[darkfiber]

I know someone at TWC here in Columbus and they are aware of the TiVo Series 3 and do support it. So there shouldn't be any issues in getting CableCards for it. I plan on getting one in the next month or so (soon as I pay off my Sony SXRD).

[tenja]

They will support it and I have an install set up for next week. My S3 should be here by monday. I will let you know how it works out.

[gruxx]

They will support it and I have an install set up for next week. My S3 should be here by monday. I will let you know how it works out.

I'm curious about the full cost of your S3 setup including install costs and what your monthly fees are to see how it compares to D*.

So, please also let us know how the pricing for that CCard install works out. $20 for one or for both cablecards.

I'd like to know why TWC reams you for someone to just slide a card in a slot.

And they still can't get abc/fox except OTA.

How can either of those things be legal at this point.

[Dizzy149]

So, please also let us know how the pricing for that CCard install works out. $20 for one or for both cablecards.

Yeah, I'm interested in what the CableCard costs are from TWC as well.

Honestly, I see CableCard really taking off when they are integrated into computer components. This already exists in several other countries, but as always the US is lagging behind because of corporations corrupting technical advances for their own greedy purposes.

[tenja]

The single cablecard I have now is pretty reasonable (maybe $1.99 per month, though not sure). I can't see how the second one will be any more. TWC is very good when it comes to the cablecards though. There are problems and glitches, but they keep at it until you have a working unit.

I will update you on the S3 once it's up and running. Still haven't received it yet.

[posty-mcpost]

I didn't know that the manual record wouldn't record the buffer data. That stinks. And this thing got CNET's top score? There must not be many HD DVR's out there.

If you started watching from the beginning of the show and you start recording in the middle go to options and select Record Entire Event. If you didn't start watching from the beginning that option will not be available.

[zelig2]

Where do I send comments on the hardware to Dish? I sure would like the ability to record what I've got in the buffer for the show I'm currently viewing.

[tenja]

Well the cablecard install from TWC has been performed and the S3 is working wonderfully. The cablecard install went troublefree and everything worked right from the start. No complaints at all.

Pricing is $1.75 for each cablecard per month. a $20 install fee total, not for each cablecard.

The series 3 is a great piece of hardware. Some may not justify the price, but when comparing it to a media center pc, it blows them out of the water. There's all sorts of reviews online so I will save you from the details.

I am a happy owner though. Seamless OTA and cablecard integration into one guide and can record from 2 tuners at once, no matter the tuner configuration.

[nicholc2]

With the cable card, do you still get TNTHD, DISCHD, and other stations like that which TW provides, but you can't get OTA?

Also, where did you get your S3?

[tenja]

I get all the cable channels, including the digital and HD tiers, as well as all OTA HD channels via antenna.

Ordered through tivo.com.

[nicholc2]

Do you have to have two cablecards installed at once to record two cable programs at the same time? Reason I ask is they mentioned something about that on the tivo site, so I wasn't sure if that were the case for TW or not.

You know it would be very ironic, but it would be just my luck to invest in an S3 and then TW would probably start carrying Fox and Abc in HD right after that. ;-)

[tenja]

yes, to record 2 digital cable shows you need the cablecards. If you only have one card in the unit resorts to single tuner mode. If you only have analog cable run to it, it will act as dual tuner mode.

Since I have an antenna connected to it as well, I use the OTA HD channels vs. the NBC and CBS feed over cable. I have great recepetion.

I'm sure there will be some small glitches to work through, but it's a great product.